Pennsylvania was ground zero for some of the wildest drama of the 2020 presidential race, particularly on and after Election Day — and not just outside Four Seasons Total Landscaping. As the state’s attorney general at that time, Josh Shapiro successfully defended Pennsylvania’s election process from numerous lawsuits filed by Donald Trump and his motley crew of a legal team after Trump lost the state to Joe Biden. Now Shapiro is the governor, and he’ll have to handle what will undoubtedly be another contentious Biden-Trump matchup this November. In the latest episode of On With Kara Swisher, Swisher spoke with Shapiro about how he and his administration are prepping for Election Day, what has and hasn’t changed since 2020, and what Biden still needs to do to win over Pennsylvania voters again.
Journalist Kara Swisher brings the news and newsmakers to you twice a week, on Mondays and Thursdays.
Kara Swisher: Pennsylvania is a perennial swing state. Biden flipped it in 2020, but only won by a hair. His approval ratings in the state are pretty low right now. You’ve been campaigning with Biden. He’s already been to Pennsylvania twice this month. Obviously, he’s from there, he grew up there. Can he carry the state?
Josh Shapiro: Of course he can. I mean, look, he carried it in 2020 by about 80,000 votes. I think what we have learned in Pennsylvania is our voters are discerning. They’re careful. They study. They tend to break late in elections. And they’re close, and I fully expect this to be a close election.
Swisher: Why do you think it’s neck and neck in the polls? Why is he struggling so much and is it just because he’s the incumbent and people always sort of attack the incumbent? What does he need to get a win?
Shapiro: Yeah, I think you’re asking two different things here, Kara. First about the polling and what does he need to win? And if I may, let me kind of separate those out. First on the polling. I mean, look, we’re a year out, 11 months out, and so I don’t pay a huge amount of attention to the polls. I’m not saying that to, like, duck or dodge your question. Just the reality is the polls are kind of a starting point. This race hasn’t joined. I think a lot of folks kind of have a little bit of brain fog about Trump. They don’t totally remember the chaos that he brought when he was president before, and similarly, I don’t think they — and this kind of bleeds into the second part of your question — I don’t think they fully appreciate all that Joe Biden has done, right?
Swisher: Right.
Shapiro: I don’t think they kind of put two and two together that, you know, I got 276,000 homes and businesses, churches, VFWs that don’t have high-speed internet that are going to get that over the next five years because of something President Biden did, right? Like, I don’t think they’ve sort of connected the dots on something basic like that and that’s why you —
Swisher: Well, why is that? I mean, some people think it’s the messaging. People can say they don’t like the economy and then turn around and say they’re doing better. They seem unhappy, like, Americans seem unhappy and they’re blaming Biden for it. Is it a messaging issue, that it doesn’t get through? That they think Bidenomics is terrible? They seem to think that.
Shapiro: I think in part, the campaign hasn’t joined yet, and they haven’t gone out and explained a lot of this to people, but second, you touch on something very real. Look, folks are worried right now, right? And folks are battling higher costs. In some communities, they’re battling crime levels that are unacceptable. They’re wondering if they can afford to buy a home because interest rates are out. These are very real things, and we shouldn’t just dismiss that, we shouldn’t only look at those things in the context of a presidential campaign. I think there is a burden on any incumbent to explain how you’re addressing those issues, based on what you’ve done in the past, and what you plan to do in the future to address that.
I think it’s incumbent upon the president and others when they stand before the people of Pennsylvania or anywhere in this country to talk about how they’ve done that. Now, I think President Biden has a track record on doing that. I think the campaign is the moment to explain that. And that is what’s—
Swisher: What’s he waiting for? I mean, he did win that speech about democracy and freedom. He’s been talking about that, but it’s — most people do vote on real things like “This costs too much.” “I don’t feel good about the future.” “This guy says what he thinks,” this is Trump, “and I’ll forgive him all his trespasses, again, I’ve forgotten about them at least.” Why isn’t it getting through?
Shapiro: I think to some extent it hasn’t started, but you touch on something and then you kind of quickly dismissed it, and I mean this respectfully —
Swisher: Go ahead, please go ahead.
Shapiro: I’m not trying to give you a hard time, but you talked about how the president gave that speech on January 6 in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, which by the way, I was there. I thought it was a really effective speech.
Swisher: I agree.
Shapiro: And then you kind of dismissed it. And you said —
Swisher: No, I don’t dismiss the speech at all. I thought it was a fantastic speech. Finally, he was speaking up.
Shapiro: Right. But then you said, I think people kind of vote on these other more tangible things, look —
Swisher: I also think that.
Shapiro: Look, folks are worried about costs. They’re worried about crime. They’re worried about stuff like that. They shouldn’t also have to worry about their democracy and their institutions. And I will tell you, having lived it here in Pennsylvania, Democracy was front and center in 2020 when Joe Biden won Pennsylvania. And I will tell you, when I won in 2022 and I earned more votes than anybody in the history of Pennsylvania running for governor — I’m not saying that to pat myself on the back — I’m saying that because we brought Democrats, Republicans, independents together to support my campaign, and a huge part of my campaign was about protecting democracy and securing real freedom, from one of Donald Trump’s chief offsprings in that election, who I was running against. So, I do think these issues are on people’s minds. They may not articulate it the way they articulate their concern about high grocery bills — which is a legitimate concern — but I do think it’s out there, and I think it’s important for the president to be able to walk and chew gum. Both to talk about the things he’s done to improve those economic things in people’s lives, and to talk about the importance of protecting our democracy at the same time.
Swisher: So you think that does resonate — which was an excellent speech, I’m not trying to discount that, it was one of his better speeches. I just discussed this with historian Heather Cox Richardson: Biden has been saying that democracy and freedom on the ballot, and so have you. As attorney general, you went up against Trump and his administration in court dozens of times, including fighting his claims of election fraud. You won a lot. But recently, you told reporters that neither you nor your Secretary of State, Al Schmitt, had the power to take Trump off the ballot, like they’re trying to do in Colorado and Maine. Explain why.
Shapiro: Yeah. I’m a former attorney general, in Pennsylvania, as you noted. I call it the way I see it. I went to court against Donald Trump 43 times and won every single time because I stayed focused on the law and I stayed focused on applying the law without fear or favor and based on the facts of the case. And so when I’m asked a question about, “Hey, could you or your secretary of state —” And in Pennsylvania, I appoint the secretary of state, and I think it’s important to note the secretary of state I appointed —
Swisher: Is a Republican.
Shapiro: — is a Republican, right? Because I think running elections should be a nonpartisan activity, but I have to call it the way I see it. And the law does not allow me or Secretary Schmidt here in Pennsylvania to remove a presidential candidate from the ballot. Only the courts can do that. And so rather than sort of playing political games here, I just want to be straight up with the people of Pennsylvania and explain what that authority is.
Swisher: So you’ve said it should be decided through the ballot box, but others have thought differently. How do you look at their arguments and where it’s going to go in the Supreme Court?
Shapiro: I think the arguments are different based on the states that you’re in and some state secretaries of state have absolute power to make these decisions. In my state, it’s up to the courts. I think at the end of the day, though, it is, you know, pretty damn likely that it’s going to be Donald Trump versus Joe Biden.
Swisher: Yeah, you’ve said that.
Shapiro: And I think the most effective thing we can do is beat Donald Trump at the ballot box. I think our institutions, our democracy, are counting on it. I don’t think we want to go back to the kind of chaos Donald Trump brought to this country. I think we have got to focus on protecting this nation from that and continuing making progress here as a country.
Swisher: So, you appointed Secretary of State [Al] Schmidt, who’s a Republican. He was your very first nomination after you were elected in 2022. Explain that choice.
Shapiro: Well, first off, Al led the elections office in the city of Philadelphia. He was attacked — and by the way, as a Republican — he was attacked relentlessly by Donald Trump, so much so that he and his family had to have police protection. He received death threats. This guy is just a career public servant, a good man who puts integrity first and leans in to make sure that we can have free and fair, safe and secure elections. And I think it was very important to me to show that here in Pennsylvania, running an election — I’m not talking about your political preferences or who you support — but running an election should be a nonpartisan exercise, and I think it’s critically important that we signal that. And that we effectuate that, and that’s why Al was not only my first appointee, because I wanted folks to know how important democracy and electioneering is, but also that he’d be a Republican, to show that no one party sort of corners the market when it comes to election integrity, that there are people in both parties that can do that. And Al is doing a great job leading the Department of State for us.
Swisher: It wasn’t just: voting is nonpartisan. He did stand up against Trump. He’s not a Trump acolyte. I doubt you would of —
Shapiro: He’s not a Trump acolyte. But what I’m saying is in the midst of all the pressure not to count certain votes and to count other votes that weren’t even present, right? Donald Trump was claiming there were all these extra votes that there weren’t. Al did the right thing. And I think what folks want more than anything right now is elected leaders and appointed leaders with real integrity. Whether they agree with them or not on a particular issue, they want folks with integrity. And I tried to signal that with my first appointment, and Al has continued to lead with real integrity.
Swisher: So you have, though, made some changes to the voting process ahead of this year’s election. For one, you simplified the mail-in ballot process. Anyone getting their driver’s license in Pennsylvania now automatically is registered to vote. Republicans pushed back on this. Trump ranted on Truth Social it was going to be a “disaster for the election of Republicans,” including him. What’s the impact you’re seeing on registration numbers? It seems like independents have actually pulled in the most new voters.
Shapiro: We’ve seen a jump in registrations because it’s now easier. You just do it at the DMV when you’re, you know, getting your driver’s license. What we have seen is it’s broken down largely on similar lines to how people are registering in a more traditional way. And we’re seeing kind of an upsurge in more independent minded voters, not hugely different from what we’re seeing in other ways of registering. In terms of what it means politically, it seems pretty clear that Donald Trump is poised to win the Republican primary. Obviously, Joe Biden poised to win the Democratic primary. We have a late primary in Pennsylvania. And so we’ve always sort of been viewed at the, as the swingiest of swing states, and that is more a November election question than a primary election question.
Swisher: So in terms of the impact, just more people voting?
Shapiro: Yeah, I mean, just hopefully more people voting more people being engaged in in our democracy.
Swisher: So a lot of county election directors in Pennsylvania want more updates. They want poll workers to be able to start counting ballots before election day. They also want to update the election code so it’s harder to challenge the results. Any chance of getting that done?
Shapiro: These are bipartisan things that election clerks and county commissioners in Republican and Democratic counties all want. You know, I’m the only governor in the entire nation with a divided legislature. I’ve got one chamber led by Democrats, one led by Republicans. So we’ve always gotta find common ground, bipartisanship, to get big things done, and we get a lot of shit done here.
Swisher: Well you don’t always. Look at our Senate. Look at our Congress. But go ahead.
Shapiro: Yeah, well, we actually, we live by three letters, GSD, get stuff done, get shit done. That is our approach in Pennsylvania, and I think we’ll look for ways to find common ground when it comes to election fixes to strengthen our system.
Swisher: Al Schmidt wasn’t the only poll worker who faced threats in 2020. There were protests outside the convention center, got a lot of attention at the time. What are you doing to ensure safety and do you expect that again this year?
Shapiro: I put together a task force, a strike force here within our state government that’s actually been meeting for months already. And we’re focused on ensuring that people have that we have a free and fair, safe and secure election. People have unfettered access to the ballot box. Of course, those who are legal eligible voters, anyone who wants to vote by mail is able to do so securely. That’s sort of one focus of our team.
The second focus of our team is more of a law enforcement bet, making sure that polling places are free from violence and threats, that those who are election workers, those who administer the process were able to do so without threats to their own safety.
And then we’ve got a legal team focused on, you know, whatever legal challenges may come, whether it’s from Donald Trump or any other entity. We want to make sure that every legal, eligible voter can cast their ballot and that every single one of those votes will be counted and that the will of the people will be respected.
And as attorney general, I did a lot of the same work. We have a track record of success. I know what I’m doing here in Pennsylvania, and we’re going to have another free and fair, safe and secure election.
Swisher: But those images were disturbing from Pennsylvania, particularly what — are you worried about this happening again or you feel it’s burnt itself out or?
Shapiro: I don’t think it’s burned itself out because Donald Trump hasn’t burned himself out. If anything, he’s only gotten crazier and he’s only gotten more aggressive. He’s only gotten more threatening. He’s more unmoored, if you will, than he was years ago, and so I’m incredibly concerned about it. That’s why we’ve been already meeting and working on this, and why we’ll be prepared in the run up to both the primary and the general election.
Swisher: And that means any scenario. I mean, there was a scenario on Succession, as you know, at the end. There was a firebombing at an election site. But is there one [scenario] you’re more worried about than the others?
Shapiro: I’m worried about all of it, I want to make sure I’ve got the best lawyers ready to go to court to ensure that we protect the will of the people that we’re going to coordinate local, state and federal law enforcement officials to make sure that people have access to the ballot box and they can feel secure when they go cast their ballots, and people working there can feel secure. Kara, I’m concerned about all of it. I don’t know that I’d be doing my job effectively as governor, and Secretary Schmidt as secretary, if I focused only on one. We’re focused on all of it.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
On With Kara Swisher is produced by Nayeema Raza, Blakeney Schick, Cristian Castro Rossel, and Megan Burney, with mixing by Fernando Arruda, engineering by Christopher Shurtleff, and theme music by Trackademics. New episodes will drop every Monday and Thursday. Follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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