At this year’s World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, I sat down with the prime minister of Greece, Kyriakos Mitsotakis.
At this year’s World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, I sat down with the prime minister of Greece, Kyriakos Mitsotakis.
As incumbent leaders the world over struggle in the polls, Mitsotakis returned to power in 2023 with a resounding victory. He’s a center-right politician who believes in progressive social values, and under Mitsotakis, Greece has had a surprising economic revival. Once known as the “sick man of Europe,” Greece’s economy has bounded back in the last few years, with its growth among the highest in Europe. It’s also been able to shrink some of its debt load, which precipitated its crisis more than a decade ago.
As a NATO member, Greece is invested in the fate of Russia’s war in Ukraine. It also has interests across the Middle East, not least through its massive shipping industry, now under threat through disruptions in the Red Sea. Mitsotakis and I spoke about all of this during our live discussion. Subscribers can watch the full interview on the video box atop this page. What follows is a condensed and edited transcript.
Ravi Agrawal: I thought I’d begin with the Middle East. Greece has a huge shipping industry. We have a crisis in the Red Sea right now, where a Greek ship was attacked by Houthi rebels this week. How worried are you about escalation?
Kyriakos Mitsotakis: We are all quite worried about the possibility of a regional escalation. What is happening in the Red Sea is particularly concerning, not just to the Greek shipping industry, but also for international trade in general at a time when we’re trying to bring inflation down. Any disruption in supply lines can only make this global effort by central banks more complicated.
Greece has taken a very measured position when it comes to the Middle Eastern crisis. We initially supported Israel’s right to self-defense, and insisted on the release of hostages, but at the same time also made a very clear distinction between Hamas as a terrorist organization and the Palestinian people. As much as we defend Israel’s right to defend itself, we are increasingly concerned [about] the plight of innocent people in the Gaza Strip. As a country which is relatively close to the conflict area, that is why we try to do our best to make sure that humanitarian aid gets to Gaza as effectively as possible, which is still a very difficult challenge. At the same time, I think we are considered by all involved parties to be honest brokers. We talk to everyone. As soon as this conflict comes to an end, the time will be ripe for serious discussion about the political solution to this problem, which has been around for many decades.
RA: As an honest broker, do you think that Israel’s response has been disproportionate?
KM: Everyone should be concerned with the fact that we have more than 10,000 children who died as a result of this conflict. I don’t think it is in Israel’s strategic interest to create a new generation of orphans, or fathers and mothers who lost their children. The nature of the response is important. I have also expressed my concern that as a European Union, collectively, we have not been able to come up with a more measured but also firm conclusion when it comes to balancing our support for Israel with our call for Israel to be careful in the way it has reacted to this horrific terrorist attack.
RA: Greece was more pro-Palestinian historically, but in the 1990s, when your father was prime minister, Greece recognized Israel. Can you talk about how Greece’s orientation has changed?
KM: I would say it has significantly changed. Greece was the last European country to recognize the state of Israel. It only happened in 1990, and we’ve [since] established a very strong strategic partnership with Israel that goes beyond security and defense with a strong economic partnership. We have significant Israeli investment in Greece. And that’s what friends are for. Friends are here to tell their friends what they think.
Greece has clearly moved away from a rather unbalanced position during the ‘80s. Those were the years of the first phase of Greek populism under the socialists. Right now, I think most parties recognize us as a pillar of stability in a rather unstable part of the world. And we want to make sure that we leverage this role to do good.
RA: Could Greece or the EU be doing more to bring the two sides together?
KM: Maybe that’s something that will need to be discussed when this phase of the conflict is over. I do hope that this happens as quickly as possible, because at the end of the day, one has to address the root cause of the problem, which is a political solution to the Palestinian plight and two states living side by side in peace. I would like Europe to play a more active role once this phase of the conflict is over.
RA: What’s your sense of where you see the war in Ukraine headed and NATO’s role in it, especially given that Greece is part of NATO?
KM: Greece has been unequivocal in its support for Ukraine from the very beginning. We’ve offered not just diplomatic support but also military support, and we continue to do so because this fight really matters. For Greece, I do need to point out that this was not such an obvious decision, given the strong historical and cultural ties that we had with the Russian people. The problem is not the Russian people, it’s the Russian leadership and the horrible decisions that they took to attack Ukraine. I would argue that there’s an additional reason for Greece to support Ukraine, and this has to do with the fact that what happens in Ukraine will reverberate beyond Ukraine. If anyone who thinks that the international order can be challenged by force gets his way, then this creates very dangerous precedent.
Europe overall has been remarkably united when it comes to Ukraine. The bulk of the military support has still come from the U.S., but even achieving this political alliance has not been obvious. We’ve been able to do so. I think by the next European Council, we will agree on the financial support for Ukraine, which is going to be significant. We’re talking about 50 billion euros over four years. I think we will overcome the obstacles of the one country that did not make it possible to achieve this agreement at the previous council. We will continue to support Ukraine in spite of the fatigue and in spite of the fact that the war in Ukraine does not maybe occupy the same amount of time when it comes to media coverage.
RA: What do you make of the sanctions regime so far on Russia? On the one hand, it has been hurt by sanctions. But on the other hand, it has morphed into a wartime economy. There’s also a Greek connection here. I believe Greek ships have been involved in transporting Russian fuel, for example, which has made the price cap a little bit harder to manage.
KM: As far as Greek shipping is concerned, we have been very careful to communicate to our shipowners that they need to adhere to the international sanctions regime, and they have done so.
In terms of sanctions, I think you’re right that the Russian economy has proved to be more resilient than we thought. But this does not mean that Russia is not paying a very heavy price when it comes to its economy. A wartime economy is essentially eroding the long-term possibility of Russia to return to a path of sustainable growth. So there is pain in Russia, and that is why we are sticking to the sanctions. What concerns me is that this narrative of what is right and what is wrong does not seem to resonate as much as we thought it would to a big part of the world, especially to the global south, where, our arguments, as right as they are, sometimes seem to be rather hollow.
RA: Why do you think that’s the case?
KM: There are historical legacies. There is a colonial past for many countries. Greece does not have a colonial past. So in that sense, when we talk to countries of the global south, I think sometimes we have more credibility. It’s probably easier for us to make the case than it is for other countries who can be accused of double standards due to their historical behavior.
RA: For countries of the global south it’s not just an antagonism toward former colonial powers, but it’s also a general collective sense that their wars and problems don’t get as much attention in the West. How do you better communicate with them about this?
KM: First of all, we need to overcome what one could label the “Davos arrogance.” People gather here, including representatives of the liberal elites primarily from Europe and the United States, and say that we are the ones who know how to solve all the problems of the world. I think this is something that occasionally really upsets the countries of the global south that are emerging as global powers. And, of course, if you look at the international arrangement and the international institutions post-World War II, it simply does not reflect the reality of today’s world. So acknowledging that reality is a very good start to at least be able to talk to these countries, and by also communicating to them that we take their concerns and their resentments very seriously.
RA: Let’s take another example of a country that sits on the cusp of East and West: Turkey. Do you think that Turkey will be a spoiler in the coming months as discussions about Ukraine joining the alliance gain steam?
KM: We’ve had a complicated relationship with Turkey, but since the Turkish earthquake, we have made an honest effort to build bridges. We were the first to fly into the areas that were struck by what was a catastrophic earthquake. I’ve met [Turkish] President [Recep Tayyip] Erdogan three times since I won my reelection and he won his. We have set out a roadmap that addresses legitimate concerns by Greece that the aggressive rhetoric that Turkey had assumed in the past does not lead us anywhere. So we need to lower the temperature and the tension. This is a precondition to address our main dispute with Turkey, which is a delimitation of maritime zones in the Aegean of the eastern Mediterranean. But even if we do not succeed to resolve this problem, which has been an outstanding issue for more than 40 years, we can still agree to live in peace side by side and build on a positive agenda.
We can work together. We have to work together on migration. Greece has been rather successful in managing the migration problem, unlike many other European countries, by imposing and implementing a tough but fair migration policy. But we need to cooperate with Turkey, because we need to stop the boats before they actually leave the Turkish coast. I’d like to build upon the positive steps that both our countries have taken over the past months.
RA: This is a year of big elections around the world. Some 4 billion people will head to the polls. What is your sense of the global mood for nationalism and populism?
KM: Greece right now, unlike many other countries, is in a good position in the sense that there is no significant political or geopolitical risk for the foreseeable future. Why did we win again [in Greece]? We essentially delivered on our commitments. This is all about trust. At the core, trust is maintaining the contract that you signed with citizens when they elect you to power. If you deliver on what you told them you would do, then chances are that they will reward you.
At the same time, one needs to be very careful in this environment where everyone is pointing the finger at populists—and not to alienate the people who actually vote for them, because some of these grievances are actually very real. People feel that they’re left behind by globalization. The wages have not really increased. Inflation is really hitting lower-income households. What you need to explain to people is that there are no obvious solutions. At the end of the day, it is the economy that determines the outcome of elections.
RA: It sounds very easy when you put it like that, but even in Greece, there are far-left and far-right forces that exist, that you have to combat. You’ve had to make the case why a centrist party is a better alternative. What lessons are there for other countries in Europe and even around the world? Because this is a year, again, that people are very worried about the rise of either the far right or the far left.
KM: In political science, we frequently use the term triangulation. What we have achieved in Greece is a new form of triangulation by which we are rather liberal when it comes to the economy. We did cut taxes. We deregulated. We grew the economy by unleashing the forces of private entrepreneurship. At the same time, we were very present when it was necessary, especially during COVID. I think we followed a successful economic policy.
We were responsible patriots in the sense that we protected our borders when Turkey tried to instrumentalize migration back in March 2020. We were rather effective in managing migration.
At the same time, we were also rather liberal and progressive when it came to our social policies, really focusing on issues of income inequality, supporting people rigorously through means-tested policies, really focused on those who were in greater need, and also bringing forward policies which are not always associated with the center-right policies. For example, now we are discussing marriage equality in Greece. You wouldn’t necessarily expect a center-right party to be championing this reform.
This form of triangulation—focusing on economic growth, being responsible patriots while at the same time to be progressive when it comes to topics where one needs to be aligned with how society itself progresses—has worked well for Greece.
RA: Speaking about elections and legitimacy, how are you thinking about the possibility of Donald Trump’s reelection in the United States and what that might do for a range of issues that Greece is involved in, whether it’s Ukraine and NATO or the Middle East?
KM: It would be rather inappropriate for any foreign leader to express their views on what is fundamentally a democratic process. Europe will have to work with whoever the American people choose to elect as their next president. We may all have our preferences, but it’s probably best to keep it to ourselves.
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